
The question is no longer “build or buy?” It’s “when does buy stop paying off?” For most teams running a managed video SDK like Twilio Video, Agora, Vonage, Daily, or 100ms, that inflection point sits between 300,000 and 500,000 participant-minutes per month. Past it, a custom video platform on LiveKit, mediasoup, or Janus pays back the switch inside six to twelve months and keeps compounding.
This playbook is for CTOs and product leads who already ship production video, already know their month-over-month usage curve, and need to decide whether to switch this quarter or next year. It comes from Fora Soft’s work moving teams off Twilio Video, Agora, and Dolby.io onto LiveKit — the recording pipelines, the compliance checklists, the feature-flag rollouts, and the ops tooling that never make it into a vendor deck.
Key takeaways
• Managed SDKs cost $3,000–$8,000 per 1M participant-minutes once recording is included. A custom video platform on self-hosted LiveKit lands at $1,500–$3,500 all-in, DevOps time included.
• The switch pays off past roughly 300k–500k participant-minutes/month. Below that, a managed SDK still wins on total cost.
• Twilio reversed its 2024 end-of-life and now says it will keep investing in Video — but the sunset scare pushed plenty of teams to de-risk anyway. Treat any single managed SDK as a dependency, not a foundation.
• The switch itself takes 8–16 weeks. Recording pipeline and mobile SDK parity eat half that window.
• “Build” does not mean writing an SFU from scratch. It means running an open-source SFU you control and instrument.
TL;DR: when the switch pays off
Three answers for the impatient:
- Under 300K participant-minutes/month: stay on your managed SDK. The DevOps tax eats the savings.
- 300K–1M minutes/month, or serious feature constraints: start a switch plan. LiveKit Cloud is the lowest-risk landing zone; self-host when compliance demands it.
- Above 1M minutes/month, or any regulated workload: move now. Every month of delay is a five-figure tax on your video spend.
The rest of this article shows the work behind those answers: the real 2026 prices, the switch patterns, the failure modes, and the five-year cost of ownership.
Why Fora Soft wrote this playbook
Short version: we’ve shipped this move enough times to know where it slips. Fora Soft is a software development company that builds video and real-time communication platforms — 250+ products since 2005 with 50 in-house engineers, on WebRTC, LiveKit, and the media servers underneath. LiveKit is our current default for AI-video and real-time work, so most of the switch stories here are ones we ran ourselves.
Our video work includes BrainCert (EdTech, 500M+ classroom minutes), CirrusMED (HIPAA telehealth), and iMind (conferencing used by PwC and government bodies) — a fuller list sits in our video development track record. If you want that experience pointed at your stack, our video conferencing development team does exactly this. What follows is the same decision process we walk clients through.
Why teams are leaving video SDKs in 2026
Four push factors, in roughly the order CTOs raise them with us.
Vendor concentration risk
In March 2024 Twilio announced Programmable Video would end on 5 December 2026. It reversed that in October 2024 and, as of 2026, publicly commits to keeping Video as a standalone product it will keep investing in. Good news — but the whiplash taught the market a lesson: a single managed SDK is a business decision made by someone else. Vonage sits under Ericsson, which took about $4 billion in impairments on its $6.2 billion Vonage acquisition across 2023 and 2024 — roughly two-thirds of the purchase price. When one vendor owns your media plane, their roadmap is your roadmap.
Per-minute economics
Managed base rates run $0.003–$0.004 per participant-minute; recording, composites, PSTN, and transcription push the all-in figure past $0.008. A 100-person, 60-minute session is 6,000 participant-minutes — $18–$24 in base platform fees, closer to $48 once you record it. Teams that watch the ledger for a year usually find the SDK line item grew faster than their user base.
Feature ceilings
Server-side watermarking, programmable recording triggers, per-publisher bitrate control, custom noise-suppression models, hooks for real-time transcription — these hit ceilings on managed SDKs. Add a vertical feature like medical transcription, an eSports spectator mode, or a multi-angle classroom, and the answer is often “our API can’t do that.”
Compliance and residency
EU Schrems II, US HIPAA, APAC data localization, and a growing list of state recording-consent laws all demand that audio, video, and metadata stay where you say. Managed SDKs route to multi-region pools the vendor picks. A custom video platform pins media to a VPC, a region, or a single availability zone — your call, your audit trail.
Video SDK pricing in 2026: real numbers
Rates below are each vendor’s public list price, checked July 2026. Enterprise tiers move 20–40% with volume commitment.

Figure 1. Published per-minute HD-video rates by vendor. Green is the self-hostable OSS plane; orange is premium/legacy managed.
| Provider | Entry rate | Model | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|
| Twilio Video | $0.004 / min base | Participant-minute | EOL reversed; recording +$0.004, composites $0.01/min |
| Agora | $0.00399 / min | Participant-minute | 10k free min/mo; AI & transcription are extra |
| Vonage Video | $0.0041 / min | Publisher-minute | Roadmap uncertainty post-Ericsson writedown |
| Daily.co | $0.004 / min | Participant-minute | 10k free min/mo; flat rate |
| 100ms | $0.004 / min | Participant-minute | Recording / transcription extra |
| VideoSDK.live | $0.003 video / $0.0006 audio | Participant-minute | Cheapest mainstream option |
| Zoom Video SDK | $0.003 / min | Session-minute | 30k min/yr for $1,000, then $0.003/min |
| Dolby.io | $0.008–$0.015 / min | Participant-minute | Only managed SDK with true spatial audio |
| LiveKit Cloud (Ship) | $50 + $0.0005 / conn-min | Concurrent + minutes | 150k conn-min included |
| LiveKit Cloud (Scale) | $500 base, then $0.0004/min | 1.5M min included | Cheapest path for always-on apps |
| Self-hosted LiveKit | $0 license | Infra + ops | $1.5K–$3.5K/mo all-in at 1M min |
The break-even at 1M participant-minutes
A concrete comparison. Assume 1,000,000 participant-minutes per month — a mid-market platform: 100 rooms/day × 100 participants × 100 minutes, or an equivalent smaller-group mix. All-in monthly cost at list price:

Figure 2. Managed cost rises with every user; a custom platform is mostly fixed. The lines cross near 300k–500k minutes/month.
| Stack | Platform fee | Egress & extras | Ops | Monthly total |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Twilio Video (with recording) | $4,000 | $4,000 recording | $0 | $8,000 |
| Agora | $3,990 | $400 add-ons | $0 | $4,390 |
| 100ms / Daily | $4,000 | $300 | $0 | $4,300 |
| VideoSDK.live | $3,000 | $200 | $0 | $3,200 |
| LiveKit Cloud (Scale) | $500 | $0–$300 | $0 | $500–$800 |
| Self-hosted LiveKit | $0 | $1,000–$1,500 | $500–$2,000 | $1,500–$3,500 |
Leaving a recording-heavy Twilio setup for LiveKit Cloud Scale saves roughly $85K–$90K per year at this volume; even against a bare $4,000/mo managed bill you still save about $40K/year. Self-hosting saves more, but buys an ops burden most mid-market teams should not take on — see the six signals below.
The hidden taxes: egress, add-ons, lock-in
Per-minute rates are the bait. The real invoice grows in three places.
Rule of thumb: multiply any published SDK rate by 1.4–1.8 to get the real all-in cost. A $0.004/min call becomes ~$0.006–$0.007 once you add recording, transcription, and PSTN. Budget with that multiplier in your Year 2 forecast.
- Egress. CloudFront runs ~$0.085/GB, direct AWS ~$0.09/GB. A 1080p viewer-hour is ~1.8 GB. One million participant-minutes averaging 720p is $1,200–$2,000 in raw egress if you own it — but owning it means you can also negotiate it.
- Add-ons. Recording, composite layouts, PSTN dial-in, transcription, noise suppression, polling, breakout rooms — each with its own multiplier. Most teams pay 30–60% on top of the headline rate.
- Lock-in. Vendor primitives (Rooms, Tracks, Participants, Publishers) differ enough that switching later means re-learning the model. The longer you wait, the more lock-in accrues.
Not sure what your real video bill is?
Send your last invoice and a traffic pattern. We’ll return a side-by-side with a LiveKit (or mediasoup) landing stack, a switch timeline, and your break-even month.
Six signals it’s time to build a custom video platform
If three or more of these describe you, the question is not “should we switch” but “who leads it?”
- You cross 500,000 participant-minutes in a typical month.
- Your SDK invoice grows faster than your paid user base.
- A vertical feature (medical overlay, eSports spectator, multi-camera classroom, spatial audio) is blocked by a vendor limit.
- Compliance (HIPAA, GDPR, SOC 2 Type II, FedRAMP) needs media or metadata residency the vendor can’t guarantee.
- Your analytics team wants per-publisher bitrate histograms or encoder-decision traces, and the SDK only exposes call-level aggregates.
- Your CFO flags the video line item as the fastest-growing SaaS expense for two quarters running.
Stay on a managed SDK when: you’re under 300K minutes/month, have no compliance ask, no blocked features, and no DevOps capacity. Keep paying the convenience fee — it’s worth it at that scale.
Landing spots: LiveKit, mediasoup, Janus, Pion
“Build” in 2026 means running an open-source SFU you control. Four serious options, each with a sweet spot.
| SFU | Language | Strength | Weakness |
|---|---|---|---|
| LiveKit | Go | Best DX; recording + ingress + egress built in; full client SDKs | Less low-level control than mediasoup |
| mediasoup | C++ / Node.js | Highest throughput per core; total control of the RTP pipeline | You write your own signaling, client SDKs, recording |
| Janus | C | Mature plug-ins (SIP, recording, streaming); proven at scale | Steep learning curve; plug-in API in C |
| Pion / ion-sfu | Go | Pure-Go WebRTC stack; good for Go-native teams | Smaller community, fewer integrations than LiveKit |
Our default — and the one we ship most — is LiveKit. We reach for mediasoup only when a client already has a Node.js media team or needs a sub-100 ms custom RTP pipeline. Janus wins on heavy SIP/PSTN bridging. Pion is a niche pick for Go shops.
Why LiveKit is the default landing zone
Three reasons LiveKit wins the switches we see in 2026.
- Apache 2.0 with a managed option. Self-host from day one, move to LiveKit Cloud for scale, or split — Cloud for production, self-hosted for regulated tenants — without rewriting clients.
- Full client coverage. Web, iOS, Android, Flutter, React Native, Unity, all maintained in one org. No community-fork drift.
- Batteries included. Recording (Egress), ingress from RTMP/WHIP/SIP, a turn-detection model for voice AI, Krisp noise cancellation, PSTN via a Telnyx partnership. mediasoup and Janus give you the SFU; LiveKit gives you the whole media plane.
For the voice-AI companion to LiveKit’s video stack, see our guide to building voice AI on LiveKit and the LiveKit for AI agents course. For the SFU-vs-MCU-vs-P2P trade-off, read P2P vs MCU vs SFU for video conferencing.
Reference architecture for a custom video platform
A production LiveKit deployment has five moving parts and one source of truth. Clients join rooms over WebRTC. The SFU forwards selected media. An application server mints access tokens, enforces permissions, and runs business logic. An Egress worker records rooms to S3. An Ingress worker accepts RTMP/WHIP/SIP from OBS, phones, or bots.

Figure 3. How the parts of a custom video platform connect. Your backend mints tokens and never proxies media.
Your backend never proxies media. It mints short-lived JWT access tokens and takes webhooks on room events (participant joined, track published, room finished). All heavy lifting stays in the LiveKit plane. If you want the deeper transport-layer reasoning, our WebRTC architecture course walks through production SFU design.
The four migration playbooks
Pick one pattern on day one. Changing patterns mid-switch burns weeks.

Figure 4. Timeline, risk, and rollback for each of the four switch patterns.
1. Wrapper abstraction (default)
Build a thin client SDK wrapping both old and new stacks behind identical signatures (VideoClient.join(room)). Feature-flag traffic to the new stack in 5% / 20% / 50% / 100% steps. Rollback is a flag flip. Timeline 8–12 weeks, risk low. Right for 80% of moves.
2. Side-by-side run
Both stacks live in production at once. Route by room attribute (tenant, region, feature tier). Flip the default after 2–4 weeks of stable metrics. Timeline 12–16 weeks, risk medium — you pay double infra during the overlap. Good for risk-averse enterprises.
3. Feature-flagged new-only
Ship new features (breakout rooms, spatial audio, AI transcription) exclusively on LiveKit. Legacy traffic stays on the old SDK until deprecation. Timeline 16–24 weeks, continuous, risk medium. Good when you can’t justify the switch without a new revenue hook.
4. Full cutover
Switch all traffic on one release date. Timeline 6–10 weeks, risk high. Only when the old SDK is truly ending (contract expiring, enforced deprecation) and you already have a proven staging environment.
Reach for the wrapper when: you have live enterprise customers and can’t schedule downtime. One interface over both stacks plus a 5%→100% ramp makes rollback a switch, not a scramble.
Recording pipeline: the longest step
Recording is where we see timelines slip most. Three pieces to plan for.
- Archival compatibility. Twilio and Agora write MP4 composites; LiveKit Egress writes MP4 composites or per-participant tracks. The format is portable; the metadata schema is not. Write a one-shot ETL to map vendor metadata into your canonical schema.
- Retention and deletion. GDPR auto-deletion, HIPAA six-year retention, court-hold exceptions — now your code, not the vendor’s. S3 lifecycle rules plus Lambda triggers cover 95% of cases.
- Playback. If users stream recordings back, you’ll want a CDN (CloudFront, Bunny, Fastly) and a signed-URL auth layer. Managed SDKs bundle this; a custom platform does not.
Budget 4–8 weeks for a production-clean recording pipeline. Teams that under-budget here ship a switch that works for live calls but corrupts their compliance story for months.
Worried the recording pipeline will blow your timeline?
We’ll scope your recording, retention, and archival-import work against your compliance rules and give you a week-by-week plan — no commitment.
Feature gaps you have to rebuild
LiveKit covers most of what Twilio and Agora ship out of the box. The gaps are narrow but expensive if you hit one.
- Analytics dashboards. You get raw WebRTC stats via
getStats(); you build the dashboard. Most teams pipe to Grafana, Datadog, or a custom observability stack. - Spatial audio and beamforming. Dolby.io is still the only managed SDK with genuine spatial audio. If you need it, bolt on a specialist; don’t build it from scratch.
- TURN relay pools. LiveKit Cloud bundles geo-distributed TURN. Self-hosted, you stand up coturn or pay for Telnyx/Twilio TURN — the one line item where self-hosting doesn’t save money.
- AI moderation. Nudity detection, profanity filtering — all vendor-specific. Swap to OpenAI Moderation or Hive at the egress layer.
Engineering timeline: 8–16 weeks
A realistic schedule for a production switch with 1.5–2.5 senior engineers.
| Phase | Weeks | Deliverable |
|---|---|---|
| PoC & architecture | 2–3 | Toy app on LiveKit; latency & quality benchmarks |
| Wrapper SDK + feature parity | 4–6 | Abstraction layer, AEC/AGC parity, adaptive bitrate |
| Recording / archival | 3–4 | Egress to S3, retention, historic import |
| Signaling, auth, permissions | 2–3 | Token minting, room-lifecycle webhooks |
| Load & chaos testing | 2–3 | 100K participant-minute staging soak |
| Parallel run & ramp | 2–4 | 5% → 100% traffic, rollback drill, deprecation notice |
We lean on AI-assisted code generation for the repetitive middle phases — the wrapper SDK, the recording pipeline, the load tests — which in our projects cuts those phases meaningfully. Wall-clock time still includes staging soaks and stakeholder sign-off, but the engineer-hours come down.
5-year TCO: a worked example
Take a platform growing from 500K to 3M participant-minutes/month over five years. Two scenarios, list prices:
| Year | Traffic (min/mo) | Stay on Agora | Custom platform (LiveKit Cloud) |
|---|---|---|---|
| Y1 | 500K | $24K | $6K + $50K build |
| Y2 | 1M | $48K | $9K |
| Y3 | 1.8M | $86K | $14K |
| Y4 | 2.4M | $115K | $18K |
| Y5 | 3M | $144K | $22K |
| 5-year total | $417K | $119K |
Net saving over five years: ~$298K on a mid-market platform, plus full control over features, compliance, and brand. Here’s the arithmetic on the front-loaded build: a $50K one-off against a Year 1 run-rate delta of ($24K − $6K) = $18K, then ($48K − $9K) = $39K in Year 2 — so the build is paid back before Year 2 closes. Our LiveKit switch work lands below this $50K estimate when scope stays tight; see the FAQ for real ranges.
Reach for self-hosting when: you clear ~3M minutes/month, already run a mature Kubernetes platform, or compliance forbids a managed plane touching media. Otherwise LiveKit Cloud Scale is the cheaper all-in once you price your own ops time honestly.
Compliance and data residency
LiveKit Cloud is SOC 2 Type II certified and signs HIPAA BAAs. Media stays in your chosen region; observability data is processed in the US as of early 2026 — disable it at the project level if strict GDPR residency applies. Recordings land in your S3 bucket, under your IAM, with your retention rules.
End-to-end encryption via WebRTC Insertable Streams is supported for both LiveKit and mediasoup. The trade-off: server-side recording and transcoding can’t see the media — encryption happens on the client, the SFU only forwards. For most regulated workloads that’s exactly the property you want. For consent and audit patterns, see our video streaming security playbook.
Mobile and browser gotchas
Three traps we see on nearly every switch.
- iOS codec limits. Every iOS browser shares WebKit’s video pipeline. H.264 is universal, VP9 is patchy, AV1 is not guaranteed. Always simulcast H.264 as a fallback.
- Store review latency. App Store and Play Store reviews take 2–5 business days. Time the mobile rollout after the web rollout so any emergency rollback hits the smaller surface first.
- Background execution. iOS kills mic/camera when the app backgrounds. Test call-state handling on a weak network with the device locked — the bug nobody catches in QA.
What shipping migrations taught us
Three patterns keep showing up across our video project portfolio. The stories below are drawn from real engagements; some specifics are generalized under NDA.
EdTech, off a managed SDK for multi-camera classrooms. One education platform we build for — hundreds of millions of classroom minutes a year — needed per-room recording, breakout rooms, and LMS-integrated attendance at a granularity the managed SDK could not expose. We wrapped both stacks, flag-ramped by institution, and moved recording to the client’s own S3 with a retention policy their auditors signed off on. Live-call quality held; the win was features the old API simply refused.
Telehealth, to self-hosted LiveKit in a HIPAA VPC. A telehealth product on our books had state-level residency and audit-trail rules a vendor BAA alone couldn’t satisfy. Media stayed pinned to one region, E2EE via Insertable Streams, recordings under the clinic’s IAM. The hard part wasn’t the SFU — it was the compliance sign-off, which we planned for from week one.
B2B conferencing SaaS, off Agora at the 1M-minute mark. A conferencing client wanted custom layouts and branded recordings, and its per-minute spend had crossed the point where a custom video platform pays for itself. We ran the wrapper pattern through to a full cutover and cut per-minute cost by more than half. Want a similar read on your stack? Book a 30-minute assessment. In every case the hardest piece was organizational — compliance, mobile re-submission, retention, customer comms — not the SFU. Switches fail organizationally, not technically.
Want a switch plan tailored to your traffic curve?
We’ll map your current SDK bill, project post-switch spend, and hand back a week-by-week cutover plan with a risk register.
A decision framework: pick your path in five questions
Answer these five in order. The first “yes that changes the math” is usually your answer.
- 1. What’s your monthly volume? Under 300K participant-minutes, stay managed. Over 500K, the switch math turns positive fast.
- 2. Is a feature blocked? If a vendor limit is costing you revenue or a deal, that alone can justify the move below the volume threshold.
- 3. What does compliance require? Hard media/metadata residency or a full audit trail points to self-hosted LiveKit in your own VPC.
- 4. Do you have ops capacity? No one to carry a media-infra pager means LiveKit Cloud, not self-hosting — regardless of volume.
- 5. What’s your risk tolerance? Live enterprise customers point to the wrapper pattern; a truly ending SDK points to a full cutover. If two or more answers push you to switch and you want a second opinion, that’s a 30-minute call with us.
The short version: volume and compliance decide whether to build a custom video platform; ops capacity and risk tolerance decide how.
Seven pitfalls that kill migrations
- Under-budgeting the recording pipeline. Give it 4–8 weeks on its own.
- Skipping the load soak. A 100K-minute staging run catches 80% of what your first production day will throw.
- No feature-flag rollback path. Flip-of-a-switch rollback is the cheapest insurance you’ll buy.
- Ignoring mobile re-submission lag. Plan around App Store / Play Store windows from week one.
- Dropping observability. Switch faster than your dashboards and you’re blind during incidents.
- Missing the compliance audit. DPAs, BAAs, and SOC 2 reports for every new vendor in the chain.
- No customer-comms plan. Even a clean switch breaks trust if an enterprise customer hears about it from a support ticket.
When NOT to build a custom video platform
Four situations where staying put is the right call.
- Under 300K minutes/month. The switch cost outruns the savings inside any reasonable horizon.
- No DevOps bandwidth. Managed is the right abstraction when nobody wants a media-infra pager.
- Exit or acquisition imminent. Don’t rebuild a commodity stack the quarter before a sale.
- Unvalidated product. If the business thesis isn’t proven, the video SDK is the least of your worries.
FAQ
What is a custom video platform?
A custom video platform is a real-time video system you own and operate on an open-source SFU — usually LiveKit, mediasoup, or Janus — instead of renting a managed SDK. You control the media plane, recording, features, and data residency; the vendor controls none of it.
When does switching off a managed SDK pay off?
Around 300,000–500,000 participant-minutes per month at 2026 list prices. Below that, a managed SDK is cheaper once you count your own ops time. Above roughly 1M minutes/month the savings run into six figures a year.
What does a Twilio Video or Agora switch to LiveKit cost at Fora Soft?
For a mid-market platform with web + iOS + Android clients, basic recording, and SOC 2 requirements, our typical range is $30K–$70K over 8–12 weeks. Agent Engineering trims the middle phases, so our numbers usually sit below market ranges from dedicated dev shops.
Is Twilio Video actually going away?
No. Twilio reversed its end-of-life in October 2024 and, as of 2026, commits to keeping Video as a standalone product it will keep investing in. The 2024 sunset scare is why many teams de-risked anyway — a single managed SDK is still someone else’s business decision.
LiveKit Cloud or self-hosted?
Cloud for almost everyone under ~3–5M minutes/month. Self-host when compliance forbids a managed plane touching media (HIPAA VPC, FedRAMP), when you already run mature Kubernetes, or at multi-million-minute volume. The two are portable — start on Cloud and move later.
Can we keep recordings from the old SDK?
Yes. MP4 is portable. You write a one-shot ETL from vendor metadata into a canonical schema, move files to your own S3 bucket, and wire retention rules. Budget 2–4 weeks for the backfill.
Does LiveKit support PSTN and SIP dial-in?
Yes, through the Ingress API (SIP, RTMP, WHIP). For PSTN, Telnyx and Twilio SIP trunking both bridge into LiveKit rooms; the LiveKit-on-Telnyx bundle also lowers STT/TTS costs when you’re adding voice AI.
How do we avoid breaking existing customers during the switch?
Wrapper abstraction plus feature flags plus a 5%→100% ramp with explicit rollback. Announce a maintenance window only if unavoidable, and tell enterprise customers 30 days ahead so security reviews don’t stall the rollout.
Can Fora Soft run the whole switch for us?
Yes. We’ve shipped LiveKit switches for EdTech, telehealth, and B2B conferencing SaaS. A typical engagement is 8–12 weeks, fixed scope, known budget, with your team embedded so you own the codebase on day one after launch.
What to read next
Vendor alternatives
Agora.io Alternatives for Realtime Voice & Video
The side-by-side that pushes many teams to consider LiveKit.
Architecture
P2P vs MCU vs SFU for Video Conferencing
The topology choice under every custom video build.
Voice AI
Build Voice AI That Sounds Human with LiveKit
Latency, cost, and provider picks on the same stack.
Video stack
Building a Video Streaming App in 2026
VOD, live, and conferencing — protocol, codec, CDN choices.
Compliance
Security Features for Realtime Media Apps
Encryption, recording consent, and audit patterns for your switch.
Ready to switch off your video SDK?
The decision comes down to three numbers and one honest question. The numbers: your monthly participant-minutes, your all-in SDK bill, and the cost of the features you can’t ship today. The question: is real-time video core enough to your product to own it?
Under 300K minutes/month, stay managed. Past 500K, or with a compliance ask or a blocked feature, a custom video platform on LiveKit pays back inside a year and keeps compounding. The switch is 8–16 weeks of focused work — and it fails organizationally, not technically, so plan the comms and the compliance sign-off as carefully as the code.
Thinking about switching off your video SDK?
No sales pitch. Bring your last invoice and your traffic curve; you’ll leave with a defensible “stay or move” answer and a number.

